(eerie music)
- We are in a strange place, you know?
in a strange place in the Corona,
Corona lockdown, You know?
That would be the opening.
That would be the opening, yeah?
- [Camera Man] President Klaus, thank you very much
for taking time, talking to us.
- Thank you, thank you for coming to us.
1st of November 2020.
You know, we are in a very special environment.
We are here in another lockdown
on a global scale, partially.
Certain countries still in a lockdown since March.
I mean, have you ever thought that this situation
they're in could be, it could happen like this?
- Oh, probably, probably.
I am afraid no one could imagine
that something similar could happen.
Nevertheless, when it started in March,
you know we already saw that there are very powerful forces
who are interested in strengthening the restrictions
in continuing various lock downs.
And in this respect I assume we can imagine what will go on.
- So, I mean, you know, if somebody would have said
eight months ago that they could locked down
the whole economy, you would have laughed?
- Probably probably, but now it's already the history.
You know, we already lived for eight months
in a more or less crazy, crazy world.
And then in this respect one thing goes after another rather
in a quasi-rational process.
So, I am afraid that we are not at the end of the story.
I mean, you can imagine very easily
that the governments all over the world,
they'll go on and introduce new measures,
which will be devastating
to the economy and to the atmosphere in societies.
- So would you say that the new normal,
that's the beginning of the new normal already?
- Yeah, I don't know the term new normal.
So, just think that there will never be the old normal.
That's probably true.
We have shifted,
the society somehow and we are at the new level.
One to call it new normal potential
terminology to use.
- [Camera Man] So what is it,
does it lead to a full nationalization
of the economy at the end of the day?
When governments are interfering
- Well I don't think that nationalization is the story.
At least, definitely not the nationalization
in the old style, of the old form, you know?
I don't think that the governments will nationalize
the economy as it was done 70 years ago.
In my, Czechoslovakia, at the time, you know.
It's sufficient to radically increase the restrictions,
prohibitions, necessary conditions,
sub-condition, standards.
And that's the new form of nationalizing the economy.
- I mean, all those measures at the end of the day
when you look at social distancing, self-quarantine,
governments decide certain businesses are essential
others are not essential.
- Well, you see, you mentioned the term social distancing,
which is a really new,
new formula, new formulation.
You know, we in the communist era,
we understood the logic of the communist system.
And the logic was to practically liquidate as much
as possible horizontal relations,
horizontal relations in the economy.
Among terms, and the prices,
and the horizontal relations among people.
You know, everything has to be done from one place,
to the top and back.
So, the horizontal,
vertical relations are the only sort of allowed
not horizontal relations.
And this is the way how we describe communism
and the structure of communist society.
And now the whole idea of social distancing
is another form of breaking the horizontal,
horizontal relations among people.
And this is the way to fragmentation of society,
to atomization of society.
I say this is one of the main issues
not sufficiently discussed in our societies these days.
- [Camera Man] Could you explain that a little more
about the importance of horizontal relations?
- You know, in a communist system,
really wanted to separate us.
It was not called social distancing,
but practically it was the same idea
and the same logic to not,
to let us go together to talk
and potentially to prepare a revolution
to destroy communism.
So the idea was to make,
to keep us separate as much as possible.
And that's the substance of the system,
the communist system, or of any totalitarian system.
And we are really dangerously approaching the new reality.
- So what do you think?
I mean, now the second lockdown has started.
We heard, you know, I mean, Italy, you already have riots.
We see it, you know, lockdown in France.
lockdown in the UK.
How, you know, do you think are we ever going out
of this lockdown again?
Or is it just going to be enforced?
- Well, I am absolutely sure that
this epidemic, pandemic
is really a temporary issue there.
This pandemic will be over sooner or later,
but those manipulators of our societies learned a lot.
Try to,
try what society can accept and what not.
And so in this respect, it's a dangerous precedent.
- So, you're saying it's much more about
fear and control than - Fear and control,
to distribute,
fear is also a very successful instrument,
how to suppress people.
- Yeah.
And when we look at social distancing,
so human interaction becomes a medical problem.
It's a medical threat, a health threat.
I mean, this is as you said,
you know, it's really destroying society as such.
- Social distancing or to put it in another terminology,
two eliminate the interplay ,
of free citizens, that's really the issue of the day.
And this is what we feel very strongly about.
- Could you give me that book.
We recently published a book about reacting
to what has been going on in the United States of America.
And we call it the book, Self Destruction of the West.
You know, and this is definitely one of them,
of the sub stories of the Self Destruction of the West.
And I'm afraid that the West still doesn't take it,
doesn't seriously,
behaves very seriously to this this topic.
So, we feel it very strongly because of our over sensitivity
which was the result of the communist experience.
Some experience people have in Switzerland,
in the United States they didn't have.
- So you are saying it's basically a war
against Western Civilization?
It's a war against the achievements of enlightenment,
meaning free speech, capitalism as a market.
It's free markets, private property, their family,
and also the belief system.
I think Christianity, you know self-responsibility
and the man is born free.
- Exactly, exactly.
We can add additional characteristics of that
but more or less, this was a good summary.
So I mean, what do you think,
when you look into your home country?
How much damage has already been done?
Do we escape from the situation or is it?
- Well, the damage is definitely on the one hand of people,
some people being ill and some people dying.
This is definitely a damage which no one
should underestimate.
Nevertheless, the damage which has been done
is much more broader.
Much broader, you know?
To stop the economy,
to destroy the normally functioning government budget.
To start the huge deficits,
which will be our children,
not just children, but the children's children.
So, this is something that I feel,
as a former minister of finance,
I feel very strongly about.
- So, I mean, you know, over the last few years
we have heard a lot of,
old theories being promoted
like the Modern Monetary Theory,
the universal basic income,
does that fit into that picture?
- All those ideas, Modern Monetary Theory
and guaranteed incomes and such,
this is something which we more or less
experienced in the communist era.
So, we feel very strongly about it.
And we wanted really to re-introduce
the connection between human activity,
human achievements, and the income, you know?
Something that was interrupted in the communist era.
And we see that the same stupid communist idea
has been returning to us under a different,
slightly different name,
but in a new closing, you know?
Tragic, tragic.
This is something that I would say,
I served years ago in the moment of our Velvet Revolution
of the fall of communism.
This is something I must say, I didn't expect.
- I think we had the whole big, I mean
I never thought that something like this is possible.
- And when you mentioned the like
of the suppression of the Liberty.
This booklet of ours demonstrate
that we have the glove and the mask on it.
So, that's the whole idea of,
of what is going on here.
Not just here in this country,
but all over the world.
So, this was our very early contribution to the debate
about that in the Czech Republic.
- I mean, I remember that we made an interview together,
beginning of April for when everything started.
And I remember that you were saying,
what can we do to get out of this crisis?
And you were saying, no, people should say no to everything.
What is your, you know, few months or down the road?
- Well, I think (chuckles) the same recommendation is valid.
So, the people should say no,
but I am afraid that since that time
that people are more frustrated.
More afraid.
They accepted the,
widely distributed fear.
And so I think that the people are now weaker
than they used to be eight months ago.
This is one important conclusion which should be drawn.
- I mean, if you think about
the sound backbone, I'm a Swiss.
So the sound backbone, of course,
was always small business owners,
small, mid sized companies.
You know, the restaurant owners, the one who has a bar,
the one that employs two, three people.
And now of course, with these rules and regulations,
I mean, it's a direct attack on the smaller guys.
Which always have you know,
the ones independent of government,
a bit more critical
when it comes to government interference.
- When you say attack, it's much more.
Attack is implicitly something which is just now starting.
It has already happened.
Attack has been already achieved and achieved and done.
And yeah, beyond that,
those smaller businesses,
they're all over Europe more or less skilled.
You know, that that's the real issue of the day
and how to return,
how to go back to the old situation.
It would take years, decades, not just months or weeks.
- I mean, I know you are also knowing about cycles.
Everything is operating in cycles.
You know, we have longterm debt cycles,
50 years even mentioned in the Bible.
We have to shorten that cycle,
generational cycle is 80 years?
I mean have you ever, do you find those interesting or?
- Well, definitely there are cycles in human activities,
but I am a practical man
and I'm an economist and politician.
You know, really doesn't dream about utopias
and about something in the future.
So, I am interested in something,
something that is visible.
I am not that much interested in how the world
would look like in two 2120, you know?
This is this is beyond my capacity of thinking,
because as an economist,
I know what this contract means
and I know that the discount rate
and the reality discounts the future.
And I am afraid that we are not able to say anything
meaning for about 100 years from now.
- [Camera Man] So, what lessons have you learned
that you think could help people today?
- Learn?
- What Lessons?
- Lessons.
The people should oppose,
people should oppose all kinds of government restrictions.
And this is the only,
this is the only lesson
which we have learned from the history
and especially which we have learned from our communist era.
- I think that's a very strong ending.
- That's very strong ending.
- [Interviewer] Thank you, so very much.
Okay, okay, okay.
- That's fine for the?
- That's fine.